Black immigrants are closing the white-black achievement gap

Actually the success or lack thereof of the children of immigrants is MORE important to analyze than the that of immigrants. Because their playing fields should be leveled. Same skin color. Born in the same country.

It is ridiculous to ignore the ancestry of the Blacks born here. The ability to create success for your children and grandchildren and/or to pass on wealth to children or grandchildren is the most important factor of immigrant success. If they are Americans with Caribbean ancestry and they are more successful or they fought for civil rights, then that actually proves the point that there is a distinction between the native Blacks and those with roots/culture/ancestry outside of the USA.
the more important and defining question would be, when do Black people in this country stop being Caribbean american, nigerian american etc and just convert into "AFRICAN AMERICAN"? like at what point did the people who migrated from the West Indies to Harlem in the late 1800's and early 1900's convert from their Caribbeaness into FULL Black American? Is there a standard time frame for being considered African American? or is it up to the individual..at what point did the Bajan people sent to the US as slaves in the Carolinas disregard their ancestry and just became American? at what point did the Haitians in New Orleans just became American and the trend goes on.

If I have kids with a trini woman in America would they be African American? OR would they be Trinidadian/Caribbean American. How about if they grow up in Brooklyn speaking in trini creole, eating trini food and going carnival or how about we move to in the typical African American neighbourhood in South Carolina and we let them embrace the typical traditions of chitlin, cornbread, chicken and waffles etc?

YOU GET MY POINT? this thing is complicated

Is Nikki Minaj Caribbean American, African American or is she a combination of both? I think its up to how the person choose to define themselves and its according to how they grew up and what they cling to.
 

jamaicangirl

Boonoonoonoos
I'll say this. One thing that is very positive about the black Caribbean mentality is their belief in going after education and opportunities. They do not come from a society where being black means you are expected to have less education or that you are only capable of menial labour. They are go getters.

The issue that comes with this is that some successful black Caribbeans take this to the extreme and lack empathy. The way they see it, if they came from an island and made it, everyone should have. Anyone who didn't make it is lazy and less than them. They don't care about the social conditions of the poor black in North America because they feel that they came from a worse situation. They don't acknowledge the fact that everyone didn't get the same opportunities they got. Because they're succeeding, they really buy wholeheartedly into the American Dream capitalist philosophy and treat those who aren't achieving as lesser beings. To their defense, a lot of other well to do people, whether they are local or immigrant, do this too and it's unfortunate.
But you realize that many of the immigrants from the West Indies who are successful did come from a worse situation than what the American Blacks had. I come from two prominent Jamaican families but we had "old money" and land that has all but dwindled down to next to nothing. In Jamaica we would have nothing but our name and some property. In the US, I was able to excel. Not by who my grandfathers were but by my own efforts and education, etc.

My story is not even a good story. I know people who were really poor back home who are successful in America. I wont even mention people who I know from India who were poor and won visa lotteries or from other random places and came with very little. It is not the same, but there are opportunities in the US that natives do not take. There are scholarships, work opportunities, etc. that are filling up with foreign Blacks (and their children) when you would expect it to be 90% Afro-American.
 

SKBai1991

Registered User
the more important and defining question would be, when do Black people in this country stop being Caribbean american, nigerian american etc and just convert into "AFRICAN AMERICAN"? like at what point did the people who migrated from the West Indies to Harlem in the late 1800's and early 1900's convert from their Caribbeaness into FULL Black American? Is there a standard time frame for being considered African American? or is it up to the individual..at what point did the Bajan people sent to the US as slaves in the Carolinas disregard their ancestry and just became American? at what point did the Haitians in New Orleans just became American and the trend goes on.

If I have kids with a trini woman in America would they be African American? OR would they be Trinidadian/Caribbean American. How about if they grow up in Brooklyn speaking in trini creole, eating trini food and going carnival or how about we move to in the typical African American neighbourhood in South Carolina and we let them embrace the typical traditions of chitlin, cornbread, chicken and waffles etc?

YOU GET MY POINT? this thing is complicated

Is Nikki Minaj Caribbean American, African American or is she a combination of both? I think its up to how the person choose to define themselves and its according to how they grew up and what they cling to.
lol what a hypocrite
 

jamaicangirl

Boonoonoonoos
the more important and defining question would be, when do Black people in this country stop being Caribbean american, nigerian american etc and just convert into "AFRICAN AMERICAN"? like at what point did the people who migrated from the West Indies to Harlem in the late 1800's and early 1900's convert from their Caribbeaness into FULL Black American? Is there a standard time frame for being considered African American? or is it up to the individual..at what point did the Bajan people sent to the US as slaves in the Carolinas disregard their ancestry and just became American? at what point did the Haitians in New Orleans just became American and the trend goes on.

If I have kids with a trini woman in America would they be African American? OR would they be Trinidadian/Caribbean American. How about if they grow up in Brooklyn speaking in trini creole, eating trini food and going carnival or how about we move to in the typical African American neighbourhood in South Carolina and we let them embrace the typical traditions of chitlin, cornbread, chicken and waffles etc?

YOU GET MY POINT? this thing is complicated

Is Nikki Minaj Caribbean American, African American or is she a combination of both? I think its up to how the person choose to define themselves and its according to how they grew up and what they cling to.

The labels do not matter. Those are just social constructs. The data speaks for itself.

It is not a Caribbean thing.

Is a girl born in New York to a fundamentalist Muslim family from Iran the same as every other girl born in New York in the same year? Is she raised the same? Is she even going to have the same experiences as an Iranian-American girl whose parents are Jewish or one who is Christian? Do you see the point? Where you are born has little relevance in these issues outside of providing you with the same educational opportunities.

There is a huge difference between the first generation Americans with Indian parents and other Americans. Being born in the same country is not as powerful as how you are raised.
 

Missmayling

Registered User
Caribbean people need to stop trying to claim these successful Black Americans of Caribbean descent

cuz when you really do the history at least 30% of the Blacks in America have some sort of Caribbean/Latin American ancestry

it dont matter if u ancestors come from MARS, if you born in America you American

people have this tendency to wanna claim the success but disregard the failures

just like small islanders quick to claim the Trinis of small island descent but when you tell them about the negative ones thats into crime they dont want to claim that though.

as long as u born in Trinidad you trini, it dont matter if u father come from GUAVE...its the same thing with America

And i saw triniking and others always saying Blacks from the south..its a big secret that there were many blacks in enslaved in the far north too, its a big disrespect to them when people act like slavery only existed in the south, go all the way upstate and there were SLAVES, maybe not on the level of the south but STILL they should not be disregarded

there were SLAVES in Manhattan for christ sake, it annoys me to hear black people walking around thinking all blacks came from the south.
Why don't you use the same argument for white, Asian, Hispanic and other groups of Americans and tell them to stop talking about their immigrant ancestors.
 

SKBai1991

Registered User
underneath all the theatrics and fluff i know there is an intelligent person there so why don't you converse and debate instead of trying to belittle me? for what reason i dont know.
You never actually brought anything to this thread worth conversing and debating about. We talking about achievement gap, you here calling out people born in the states as not being WI, and then contradicting yourself immediately afterwards by saying that people should define their own ethnicity even though you just tried to define it for them. What is there to converse about?

The labels do not matter. Those are just social constructs. The data speaks for itself.

It is not a Caribbean thing.

Is a girl born in New York to a fundamentalist Muslim family from Iran the same as every other girl born in New York in the same year? Is she raised the same? Is she even going to have the same experiences as an Iranian-American girl whose parents are Jewish or one who is Christian? Do you see the point? Where you are born has little relevance in these issues outside of providing you with the same educational opportunities.

There is a huge difference between the first generation Americans with Indian parents and other Americans. Being born in the same country is not as powerful as how you are raised.
Agreed.

The fact that there is a distinct achievement gap between people born to immigrant parents and multi-generational americans is in and of itself indicative of background having a significant influence on one's worldview, values and lifestyle.
 
You never actually brought anything to this thread worth conversing and debating about. We talking about achievement gap, you here calling out people born in the states as not being WI, and then contradicting yourself immediately afterwards by saying that people should define their own ethnicity even though you just tried to define it for them. What is there to converse about?



Agreed.

The fact that there is a distinct achievement gap between people born to immigrant parents and multi-generational americans is in and of itself indicative of background having a significant influence on one's worldview, values and lifestyle.
how can u not see my connection to the point?
 
you cannot compare a small black immigrant group against the entire African American population, it is not a good comparison and is not indicative of much.

its an unfair comparison
 

robblaten

New member
you cannot compare a small black immigrant group against the entire African American population, it is not a good comparison and is not indicative of much.

its an unfair comparison
The most important Caribbean American was none other than ALEXANDER HAMILTON, first Secretary of the Treasury of the USA. I wonder how many of you think he was in the US long enough to be deemed 'African American'?????
 

SKBai1991

Registered User
you cannot compare a small black immigrant group against the entire African American population, it is not a good comparison and is not indicative of much.

its an unfair comparison
First of all, there are millions of us here. And secondly, even within New York where the populations are more evenly split, there's a clear and observable divide between the two populations' levels of educational attainment and socioeconomic status.
 
First of all, there are millions of us here. And secondly, even within New York where the populations are more evenly split, there's a clear and observable divide between the two populations' levels of educational attainment and socioeconomic status.
i dont see it, all blacks in this city are equal, live in the same neighbourhoods, attend the same schools and do the same jobs
 

robblaten

New member
i dont see it, all blacks in this city are equal, live in the same neighbourhoods, attend the same schools and do the same jobs
From anecdotal evidence, I would have to agree with those on this thread that argue there is a big difference between African Americans and those of Caribbean parentage in terms of achievement.

Obviously, the latter have a HUGE advantage in life in the sense that, on average, they will come from more stable, traditional homes and reflect values that have not been ghettoised by the surrounding, dominant white culture in the USA.

In most of my dealings with Americans, including going to school there, I became accustomed to assuming Black Americans of a certain character and achievement had some West Indian background, as it literally so often turned out to be the case.

Now I am waiting to be savaged by the usual crew like Missmayling for daring say something that they will somehow construe as prejudiced.
 
From anecdotal evidence, I would have to agree with those on this thread that argue there is a big difference between African Americans and those of Caribbean parentage in terms of achievement.

Obviously, the latter have a HUGE advantage in life in the sense that, on average, they will come from more stable, traditional homes and reflect values that have not been ghettoised by the surrounding, dominant white culture in the USA.

In most of my dealings with Americans, including going to school there, I became accustomed to assuming Black Americans of a certain character and achievement had some West Indian background, as it literally so often turned out to be the case.

Now I am waiting to be savaged by the usual crew like Missmayling for daring say something that they will somehow construe as prejudiced.
from my experience here, there are a number of Afro caribbean people who are doing well for themselves and the same can be said for African Americans

the number of people who are plain African American, meaning they have no non African American parents at all is probably 25%, most people here have at least one foreign black parent.

you go to Crown Heights, Flatbush or Jamaican Queens or any West Indian enclave and you don't see no big set of riches as you people making it out to be

it have Caribbean people selling drugs and being hoodrats like Black Americans

so i dunno, its just me
 

TTCLIFEMEMBER

everyday working man
Unless you're of indigenous descent, you're an immigrant or a descendant of one and thus, you're just as much an opportunist. And perhaps some did come with their mentalities and prejudices but again, it's no different from groups who arrived previously with their prejudices. Doesn't make it alright, but what can you do. Furthermore, why give a fxck about what others think anyway? Do your own thing, and let them hate for their failures.




I'm under no impression that everyone who tries can make it, particularly in the field that I work in most people who try, fail. For there to be winners, there must be losers and its a fact of life in any society. However, my issue isn't with people who didn't make it, my issue is with people who never actually tried but then want to throw stones and hurl criticisms at people who did. I've worked extensively with Black youth of both immigrant and native-born backgrounds and have seen the whole spectrum of attitudes so while I get what you're saying, the issue is much more nuanced than "we never had the opportunities".

I was part of an outreach programme which worked to increase the number of Blacks in Health, Sciences and Engineering and the majority of the people who showed significant levels of interest were the 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. I'm in med school right now and out of my entire class, we only have roughly a dozen Blacks and of those, only 3 are actually Black Americans. We lobby, organise, offer FREE services and try and try to get people to at least give a little bit of a fxck and only a handful actually respond and of those, only a handful are Black Americans, the people who WORKED for these opportunities in the first place.

50% of where you end up is determined by what your parents were and the opportunities provided to you. But the other half is entirely dependent on YOU. A big obstacle to social mobility is opportunity, but an even bigger obstacle is a lack of self-motivation and a lack of ambition. I can throw all the money I want at someone but if you don't take it and run with it, that's your fault. I've NEVER turned away someone who wanted help and was willing to put in the time, but you have NO right to begrudge the people who did something with themselves if you were given the same opportunities and did nothing.
And you were bugging me about long posts. LOL. It's all good though.

Yes, I am a son of Caribbean immigrants who came here for opportunities. That being said, my parents never raised me with this mentality that I am better than other black Canadians or other black immigrants. Why ? Because they immigrated to this country at a time when all black Caribbean immigrants had to struggle just like black Canadians did. Plus, my parents were the type that value behaviour over ethnicity so even though they had a lot of Caribbean pride, they wouldn't justify the backwards mentality that I see from freshwater immigrants today.

I also have an issue with people who never actually try. At the same time, I understand where it comes from. Here in Toronto, it is first generation blacks of Caribbean heritage who are under performing in schools. These are the kids who grew up with society telling them how low their expectations are of them. Some of them went to schools that didn't even try to educate them or prepare them for post-secondary education. Freshwater immigrants don't know what that is like because the ones I've met do not come from environments where you are expected to fail based on your race and heritage. On average, the ones who come here now are coming here for university or to build their career and have expectations. So I agree that a lack of self-motivation is a bigger obstacle but there is a root to that and it's easy to understand how people lose motivation to try. I'm not saying it's right but I get how it happens. And no one should hate on people who try but the lack of empathy that these immigrants have for local people with less than them is not something I respect either.
 

jamaicangirl

Boonoonoonoos
from my experience here, there are a number of Afro caribbean people who are doing well for themselves and the same can be said for African Americans

the number of people who are plain African American, meaning they have no non African American parents at all is probably 25%, most people here have at least one foreign black parent.

you go to Crown Heights, Flatbush or Jamaican Queens or any West Indian enclave and you don't see no big set of riches as you people making it out to be

it have Caribbean people selling drugs and being hoodrats like Black Americans

so i dunno, its just me
Go to the Upper East Side and see what percentage of the Blacks are African Americans. I lived there for years and can count how many AAs I encountered.
 

TTCLIFEMEMBER

everyday working man
But you realize that many of the immigrants from the West Indies who are successful did come from a worse situation than what the American Blacks had. I come from two prominent Jamaican families but we had "old money" and land that has all but dwindled down to next to nothing. In Jamaica we would have nothing but our name and some property. In the US, I was able to excel. Not by who my grandfathers were but by my own efforts and education, etc.

My story is not even a good story. I know people who were really poor back home who are successful in America. I wont even mention people who I know from India who were poor and won visa lotteries or from other random places and came with very little. It is not the same, but there are opportunities in the US that natives do not take. There are scholarships, work opportunities, etc. that are filling up with foreign Blacks (and their children) when you would expect it to be 90% Afro-American.
Poverty in the rest of the world is not the same as poverty in North America. In North America, I really feel like it is very much a mental thing combined with the environment you live in.

For example, a friend of mine moved to a blue collar small town in Ontario. He told me about an area of the town which is poor and the people living in this area are white. There is a big name university in that town that is well respected all over Canada yet very few people from that neighbourhood go. This was weird to me until my friend told me that basically, these white people living in that area have never seen anyone in their immediate families go to that university or any university. Their parents and grand parents were poor and faced issues such as crappy schools, drug abuse, alcoholism, etc... Even though they were white in a highly developed country where whites are the portrayed standard of success and even though the university was not even a half an hour away from where they lived, they didn't see a future for themselves there. So imagine how it is minorities who are stuck in multi-generational poverty in Canada or the U.S.

Now, take an immigrant. An immigrant might feel poor in his own country because he doesn't have a lot of stuff. At the same time, he looks at his economic condition as a direct result of the opportunities he has (or doesn't have). He sees North America as a place where opportunities are just flowing and he can definitely move up the socio-economic ladder when he gets there. Plus, he has further motivation to do it because if he leaves his country and does nothing, his people back home will see him as a real loser. When he comes to Canada, his whole goal is to make it and he believes that he will. Consequently, he will take advantage of any opportunity he gets. That`s the difference.

Though, to be fair, some immigrants come here and don`t make it anywhere. A bunch of immigrants live in poor areas in Toronto. However, these are not the stories that North America will want to talk about because they want the world to believe that Canada and the U.S. are truly lands of unlimited opportunities for everyone who lives here and tries hard. They love their rags to riches stories here.
 
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