Black immigrants are closing the white-black achievement gap

jamaicangirl

Boonoonoonoos
And you were bugging me about long posts. LOL. It's all good though.

Yes, I am a son of Caribbean immigrants who came here for opportunities. That being said, my parents never raised me with this mentality that I am better than other black Canadians or other black immigrants. Why ? Because they immigrated to this country at a time when all black Caribbean immigrants had to struggle just like black Canadians did. Plus, my parents were the type that value behaviour over ethnicity so even though they had a lot of Caribbean pride, they wouldn't justify the backwards mentality that I see from freshwater immigrants today.

I also have an issue with people who never actually try. At the same time, I understand where it comes from. Here in Toronto, it is first generation blacks of Caribbean heritage who are under performing in schools. These are the kids who grew up with society telling them how low their expectations are of them. Some of them went to schools that didn't even try to educate them or prepare them for post-secondary education. Freshwater immigrants don't know what that is like because the ones I've met do not come from environments where you are expected to fail based on your race and heritage. On average, the ones who come here now are coming here for university or to build their career and have expectations. So I agree that a lack of self-motivation is a bigger obstacle but there is a root to that and it's easy to understand how people lose motivation to try. I'm not saying it's right but I get how it happens. And no one should hate on people who try but the lack of empathy that these immigrants have for local people with less than them is not something I respect either.
Maybe the West Indians who went to Canada were different from the ones who came to the USA?

And I am sure that Black Americans had it ten times worse than Black Canadians so I am not sure that I see the struggle as relevant. Unless you just mean that Caribbean Canadians were equal with the Black Canadians.
 
Maybe the West Indians who went to Canada were different from the ones who came to the USA?

And I am sure that Black Americans had it ten times worse than Black Canadians so I am not sure that I see the struggle as relevant. Unless you just mean that Caribbean Canadians were equal with the Black Canadians.
he keeps quoting the canadian experience as a mirror image of the american experience when its NOT

maybe caribbean people faced more hostility from african americans and built up a defense
 

TTCLIFEMEMBER

everyday working man
Maybe the West Indians who went to Canada were different from the ones who came to the USA?

And I am sure that Black Americans had it ten times worse than Black Canadians so I am not sure that I see the struggle as relevant. Unless you just mean that Caribbean Canadians were equal with the Black Canadians.

he keeps quoting the canadian experience as a mirror image of the american experience when its NOT

maybe caribbean people faced more hostility from african americans and built up a defense
I am not saying that the Canadian experience is identical to the black American experience. What I am saying is that I understand why some black Americans feel the way they do towards Caribbean immigrants and even Caribbean Americans based on what I have seen with freshwater Caribbean immigrants in Canada. If the same issues I hear black Americans talk about are the same things I see in Canada, I have no reason to think that freshwater Caribbean immigrants were any different in the U.S. than here.

The black experience was much worse in the U.S. for sure but black Canadian history shows that black Canadians had to struggle here and their struggle is relevant. Maybe not to you because you don`t live here or you don`t care but it is relevant for folks like me who care about what generations before me went through.

I will say that, because of how the U.S. is towards immigrants, there probably was more anti Caribbean hostility from black Americans than there is from black Canadians. Black Canadians are a very small population and people of Caribbean heritage outnumber them here.
 

jamaicangirl

Boonoonoonoos
I am not saying that the Canadian experience is identical to the black American experience. What I am saying is that I understand why some black Americans feel the way they do towards Caribbean immigrants and even Caribbean Americans based on what I have seen with freshwater Caribbean immigrants in Canada. If the same issues I hear black Americans talk about are the same things I see in Canada, I have no reason to think that freshwater Caribbean immigrants were any different in the U.S. than here.

The black experience was much worse in the U.S. for sure but black Canadian history shows that black Canadians had to struggle here and their struggle is relevant. Maybe not to you because you don`t live here or you don`t care but it is relevant for folks like me who care about what generations before me went through.

I will say that, because of how the U.S. is towards immigrants, there probably was more anti Caribbean hostility from black Americans than there is from black Canadians. Black Canadians are a very small population and people of Caribbean heritage outnumber them here.
For all of these reasons, the US groups and the Canadian groups should not be compared.
 

TTCLIFEMEMBER

everyday working man
For all of these reasons, the US groups and the Canadian groups should not be compared.
I don`t see it that way but either way, I can still understand the resentment of some black Americans. I`m not saying I support an anti-Caribbean immigration stance or anything like that but I know they aren`t making it up when they talk about immigrants who come to their country and don`t respect their struggles.
 

Lucianite

Registered User
immigrants to better than natives hand down, like the poster said before, non talented people are not allowed to enter.

let them do the study in a more open, more socialsit country, like the UK. I doubt the numbers would be that great.
True that immigrants do better than natives but I'm not sure that "non talented" people are NOT "allowed" to enter

I think the immigrant has a more determined mindset and take less for granted .

Stats like this should not be used as another opportunity to wrongly claim superiority of black immigrants over black Americans. A broader picture, as you stated, is that immigrants do better than natives period, and its no different among blacks.
 

Lucianite

Registered User
the more important and defining question would be, when do Black people in this country stop being Caribbean american, nigerian american etc and just convert into "AFRICAN AMERICAN"? like at what point did the people who migrated from the West Indies to Harlem in the late 1800's and early 1900's convert from their Caribbeaness into FULL Black American? Is there a standard time frame for being considered African American? or is it up to the individual..at what point did the Bajan people sent to the US as slaves in the Carolinas disregard their ancestry and just became American? at what point did the Haitians in New Orleans just became American and the trend goes on.

If I have kids with a trini woman in America would they be African American? OR would they be Trinidadian/Caribbean American. How about if they grow up in Brooklyn speaking in trini creole, eating trini food and going carnival or how about we move to in the typical African American neighbourhood in South Carolina and we let them embrace the typical traditions of chitlin, cornbread, chicken and waffles etc?

YOU GET MY POINT? this thing is complicated

Is Nikki Minaj Caribbean American, African American or is she a combination of both? I think its up to how the person choose to define themselves and its according to how they grew up and what they cling to.


Excellent point and I wonder if it was something addressed by the people doing the study.

Btw who did this study and why ?

Is black immigrant success on par with white and other immigrants ?
 

Lucianite

Registered User
As a whole disparities between blacks and whites are still the major problem irrespective of whether blacks are native or immigrants
 

Missmayling

Registered User
I don`t see it that way but either way, I can still understand the resentment of some black Americans. I`m not saying I support an anti-Caribbean immigration stance or anything like that but I know they aren`t making it up when they talk about immigrants who come to their country and don`t respect their struggles.
Respect their struggle or WI owe AA something?
 

bktrini305

Registered User
lil wayne really said that in a song? Whether its because he knows the history and just don't care or if he is just ignorant of the history its a bad look all the way around.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/_vB9lNWYM6s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IF you can stand that shitty PS3-made beat
 

bktrini305

Registered User
Actually the success or lack thereof of the children of immigrants is MORE important to analyze than the that of immigrants. Because their playing fields should be leveled. Same skin color. Born in the same country.

It is ridiculous to ignore the ancestry of the Blacks born here. The ability to create success for your children and grandchildren and/or to pass on wealth to children or grandchildren is the most important factor of immigrant success. If they are Americans with Caribbean ancestry and they are more successful or they fought for civil rights, then that actually proves the point that there is a distinction between the native Blacks and those with roots/culture/ancestry outside of the USA.
my point exactly
 

SKBai1991

Registered User
You need to learn a bit about the dynamics between West Indians and African Americans when we FIRST reach here...dem was BRUTAL when we first reach ya dred, never mind how dem did treat Africans, Haitians, etc. When people reach here and you despise them, what effect do you HONESTLY expect when they end up doing better than you?
 

robblaten

New member
You need to learn a bit about the dynamics between West Indians and African Americans when we FIRST reach here...dem was BRUTAL when we first reach ya dred, never mind how dem did treat Africans, Haitians, etc. When people reach here and you despise them, what effect do you HONESTLY expect when they end up doing better than you?
My parents lived in New York when my father attended university (and where I was born). Aside from counting the days desperately to when they could get out of the place, they always remarked how white Americans treated them and even noted they were 'different' on account of being from the islands. While they did not look down at black Americans, I am sure they were very satisfied not being mistaken for them. I think that sense among islanders may be what drives resentment in black Americans.

As to myself, when I studied in the UK, there was always a reflexive defensiveness and quickness to correct when people (on account of my accent) took me to be an African American. When they mistook me for a Bajan, Trini or Jamaican (most English people never met a Bahamian) I was totally relaxed and made it clear "no, but from a similar background place". I think there are some innate attitudes (some of them derived from historical reality) that one is better off admitting to hold. The black American / Islander tension is real.
 

Lucianite

Registered User
I am sure they were very satisfied not being mistaken for them. I think that sense among islanders may be what drives resentment in black Americans..
Re: bold - correct - there are negative perceptions of each other from both sides of the aisle. We can fuel this by pointing out what the other side does or seek the change on understanding our roles in the divide (where it exists).
 

robblaten

New member
Re: bold - correct - there are negative perceptions of each other from both sides of the aisle. We can fuel this by pointing out what the other side does or seek the change on understanding our roles in the divide (where it exists).
A similar if not deeper tension exists between Britons of Caribbean and African origin. For a long time, 'Caribbeanness' was treated by the white British popular culture as being cool, while 'Africanness' was seen as anything-but-cool. It came down to stereotyped images of rastafari, reggae and relaxation on one side and war, poverty and famine on the other.

That may be changing, as a younger generation of Africans assimilate more, but it definitely drove a wedge among the two communities.
 
You need to learn a bit about the dynamics between West Indians and African Americans when we FIRST reach here...dem was BRUTAL when we first reach ya dred, never mind how dem did treat Africans, Haitians, etc. When people reach here and you despise them, what effect do you HONESTLY expect when they end up doing better than you?
arent u like 23? what u know bout dem times? steups
 

SKBai1991

Registered User
arent u like 23? what u know bout dem times? steups
...you say that as if it stopped recently. Dude, I know people NOW who still talking shit bout Haitian dis and African dat.

And why yuh deh jump up inna people conversation like sissy? Muddas################
 
...you say that as if it stopped recently. Dude, I know people NOW who still talking shit bout Haitian dis and African dat.

And why yuh deh jump up inna people conversation like sissy? Muddas################
why u packin so much heat against me?

yall act like if Black Americans are the only one to be prejudice against other groups

black people from the north prejudice against people from the south

black americans prejudice against black caribbean

africans prejuidce against black caribbean

jamaicans prejudice against trinis

nigerians prejudice against ghanians

dominicans prejudice against ricans

and so on and so on and vice versa and all kind of thing, its human nature to build boundaries, demarcations and play on differences.
 

TTCLIFEMEMBER

everyday working man
Respect their struggle or WI owe AA something?
Absolutely just like the black Americans owe Caribbean people something and that is mutual respect.

For black people down there to talk about the opportunities they have in the U.S. without respecting the struggles of black Americans and black Caribbeans is crazy.

This mentality where we people say ¨well, my people were part of the struggle so I don`t owe you any respect or common decency¨ is backwards to me. For me to treat someone as less, it has to be because of that person`s behaviour and the mentality that makes them think that this behaviour is acceptable. Not just because of where they are from.
 

TTCLIFEMEMBER

everyday working man
You need to learn a bit about the dynamics between West Indians and African Americans when we FIRST reach here...dem was BRUTAL when we first reach ya dred, never mind how dem did treat Africans, Haitians, etc. When people reach here and you despise them, what effect do you HONESTLY expect when they end up doing better than you?

True, but I know this was a two way street. Overall, I think it`s just senseless. And what makes even less sense to me is that while people are pushing this black American vs black Caribbean mentality, you have a history in America of black Americans and black Caribbeans working together.

When I see a picture like this, I don`t know how any black American or black Caribbean can still believe that this tension makes sense

 
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