Discuss: The Biker Gang vs. Family in SUV video

BacchanalDiva

Registered User
I'd agree with this if I could see clearly that they were that menacing towards the driver that he did what he did. I just cant get a sense of that from the video. If eyewitnesses come forward and say yeah those closest to the car were really being threatening towards him then alright. But as it stands I just dont see it. Not yet anyways.
Dat what yuh talkin there is nonsense. If one out of 30 seem a little confrontational daz enough to paralyze ah man? All that other stuff is more nonsense. Ring leader? Allyuh watchin too much T.V. Most bikers are regular hard working individuals not some sinister group of thugs looking to rough up people. Yes some riders do shit on the road and partake in dangerous stunts but these wasn't no hells angels or nutten like that. If they were going to confront as a group they wasn't staying on their bikes. So save that excuse. He overreacted to the situation.

Up to now nobody in the thread mentioned directly confronting anyone so even that is bs. If he felt threatened stay in yuh vehicle, doors locked and call the police. In the meantime film all activity going on. He paniced as if it was an angry mob and it wasn't even like that. Because of him they became to some extent an angry mob. He should be charged with attempted murder for that bullshit. Doh make excuses fuh fockry. Da man was wrong. If he coward and scared then he need to live in ah fockin bubble far away from society. So if he hit one of these young punks car and they come out guffin up because he damage they new ride and he feels threatened, would it be ok to run that driver over too?
thank you for taking the time to review the ootage agin, and see my point clearly....I appreciate it.




So, if a 7'0 feet tall, 350lbs darkskin bald head guy in the likeness of Shaquille O'neal, is trying to kick down your front door. You feel you have the right to shoot the man through the door, because you fear what "might happen" if he gets through that door?

That would be an over-reaction...cause the possible harm ddn't reach a level where it was necessay to take that kind of action.


that's what the SUV driver did here, in which escalated the situation.
When a person violates our personal space, its usually with ill intent. You mean to tell me that if you're in your car and a stranger puts his hands on the handle and attempts to open your car door, you won't be convinced he intends to do you harm? LB, I agree that we don't see what made him so scared on the footage but he made a statement. Is it possible that he's lying? Yes. Could he have been a racist that just thinks all black ppl mean him harm? Yes. How likely is that though and what would otherwise possess a man to decide to run ppl over for no reason?

Insidious..if ANY man were kicking in the door to my home I would shoot; he could be a 4 foot tall, skinny chinee with bifocals. WTH @ over reaction...somebody kicking in your door and you wait to see what it is they're after? Allyuh crazy.
 

Hello BKLYN

Searching For Answers
ok, i cant see the video right now but can someone look at it for me and tell me whether or not the tires were flat or running flat? because someone just told me they were flat, thats why he stopped the time when the biker pulled his door open and he took off again... And the media is saying that the police said they slashed his tires... i am waiting to hear officially from the police.. but can someone check the video and see if you see any signs of his tires flat or low
 

Hello BKLYN

Searching For Answers
Insidious..if ANY man were kicking in the door to my home I would shoot; he could be a 4 foot tall, skinny chinee with bifocals. WTH @ over reaction...somebody kicking in your door and you wait to see what it is they're after? Allyuh crazy.
i was wondering about that part...
that was a bad scenerio he using as an example.. but i think the key he is trying to highlight is shoot him THROUGH the door, while he still on the outside.. not just the shooting part.. because in a court of law, that will look bad on the shooter... but if someone kicking in my door, i am shooting.. i rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6
 

Taj

Loyalty to Loyalty
I don't know how factual this is but it was on the news

apparently we don't see any other vehicles b/c the crew stationed ppl at the merges/exits to block traffic from coming in. The intention was for them to have a chunk of the highway to themselves for tricks whatever. SUV driver was already on the highway and got caught up, they were trying to have him stop and have them go around.

But I dunno why not let him pass and go ahead if the group is that large and you have tricks to do wouldnt he catch back up????
 

Alpha Unit

Insurgent
I don't know how factual this is but it was on the news

apparently we don't see any other vehicles b/c the crew stationed ppl at the merges/exits to block traffic from coming in. The intention was for them to have a chunk of the highway to themselves for tricks whatever. SUV driver was already on the highway and got caught up, they were trying to have him stop and have them go around.
But I dunno why not let him pass and go ahead if the group is that large and you have tricks to do wouldnt he catch back up????
Now that could very well be the case, because some will do stuff like that. Not much different than if a bunch of cars rolling together. If all have to make u-turns (lets say), the first will basically block all other cars path while everyone makes their turn and the initial blocker will turn last. This insures they stay together (at least at that time) without other cars falling in between. (Playing devil's advocate) why not let him pass? Because they probably couldn't hold the merges for too long since someone will end up calling 911 at some point. Can't do that indefinitely. Rover isn't going fast enough that once they release the blocks they will have enough time. Now it is true that the RR driver had all rights to continue along and not care about what they were attempting to do (and not be disrespected accordin to carlos). However I will again stress that if he were so overly focused on his family's safety he would have slowed and allowed them by. Not as a concession to their efforts (even though they would have thought so (who care's)) but as a tactical measure to avoid potentially hitting any of them whether accidentally or incidentally. In the video posted you see where they start appearing behind, next to and in front of him. It is at that moment that mature and rational thinking drivers with their family would slow and let them by.

Hab he stopped because he encountered traffic. At the speed he was going if his tires were flat it would have ended up coming off the rim completely. When metal hits asphalt, the friction will cause sparks to fly. There weren't any sparks anywhere in that video. He stopped because he encountered traffic. Is nuh like he was driving ah monster truck and could climb over all the vehicles in front of him.

Insid da was ah bad analogy to use on BD lol.

For those of us who know riders or related to any tell me how would you feel to know that your friend or relative (riding with about 5 or 6 other friends/ riders) passes by an accident scene with a biker down (who was already riding with 4 or 5 others as well) stop to check on the rider and the irrational driver (who hit him/ her) feels "oh my god more are coming they called in the calvary." When the initial accident occurs two of the friends start immediately cursing at the driver who hit the biker. So now that driver is thinking "They are gonna kill me" and he proceeds to paralyze your friend or family out of such irrational thinking. How would you feel.

Not saying this is the same but since some have mentioned state of mind/ fear making the actions of the rover driver ok, would state of mind in this situation give that driver a pass?
 

MÉCHANT LOUP

Cervical Cancer
When a person violates our personal space, its usually with ill intent. You mean to tell me that if you're in your car and a stranger puts his hands on the handle and attempts to open your car door, you won't be convinced he intends to do you harm? LB, I agree that we don't see what made him so scared on the footage but he made a statement. Is it possible that he's lying? Yes. Could he have been a racist that just thinks all black ppl mean him harm? Yes. How likely is that though and what would otherwise possess a man to decide to run ppl over for no reason?

Insidious..if ANY man were kicking in the door to my home I would shoot; he could be a 4 foot tall, skinny chinee with bifocals. WTH @ over reaction...somebody kicking in your door and you wait to see what it is they're after? Allyuh crazy.
Let me be clear....

I'm not gonna judge or debate a person's "Fear Threshold", because your fear level will prompt you to take action or not take action.

But that doesn't necessarily mean your emotional state, should excuse your actions from being reckless.

Let's be HONEST...if what was going on at the end of the video(bashing his windows attempting to drag him out, etc.)was happening when he decide to floor it, and subsequently run over 3+ bikers. There wouldn't be anything here for me to debate about, he would be clearly in the right.

Right now, I'm not seeing that he was definitively & clearly in the right.

If I was the Defense Lawyer for any of the bikers that beat his ass in the end. I would vehemently present that my client/s pursued the Driver because he assaulted 3+ individuals with his vehicle, also left the scene of an accident, and attempted to get way. The beating the driver received was in retaliations for assaulting their fellow riders with his vehicle and attempting to get away. Then request a plea deal for the minimal charges.

This is not and open & close case for the District attorney...there's a lot of investigation that has to take place. You have multiple bikers involved in this incident, many wearing full covering helmets. You witnesses to step up, I'm sure the wife or the husband could not legitimately Identified the individuals who were involved, if they were lined up.




ok, i cant see the video right now but can someone look at it for me and tell me whether or not the tires were flat or running flat? because someone just told me they were flat, thats why he stopped the time when the biker pulled his door open and he took off again... And the media is saying that the police said they slashed his tires... i am waiting to hear officially from the police.. but can someone check the video and see if you see any signs of his tires flat or low

There has been no indication that any of the SUV tires were flatten during that ordeal and highspeed chase.....keep in mind, slashed doesn't necessarily mean the tired had got punctured and flatten. I can slash your tire, but not break through to where the tire loses air instantly.

i was wondering about that part...
that was a bad scenerio he using as an example.. but i think the key he is trying to highlight is shoot him THROUGH the door, while he still on the outside.. not just the shooting part.. because in a court of law, that will look bad on the shooter... but if someone kicking in my door, i am shooting.. i rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6

How could you say it was Bad Scenario..then come and substantiate my scenario?

It wouldn't look just bad, it would look negligent & reckless...cuz, at that point in the scenario you still had a barrier of safety. which means you still had time and options to choose from.

No one says you're limited to the first notion that comes to your mind...Note, his fear lead him to drive over 3+ people. Yet none of those 3+ people were presenting/causing the threat that put him in fear.

I don't know how factual this is but it was on the news

apparently we don't see any other vehicles b/c the crew stationed ppl at the merges/exits to block traffic from coming in. The intention was for them to have a chunk of the highway to themselves for tricks whatever. SUV driver was already on the highway and got caught up, they were trying to have him stop and have them go around.

But I dunno why not let him pass and go ahead if the group is that large and you have tricks to do wouldnt he catch back up????
That report is true and depicted in the video....every male I discussed this incident with, whether they sided with the driver or biker, or said they were both wrong. All said when they are amongst multiple bikers, they fall back and let them go head.
He had that choice too, as much as staying on the road.
 

MÉCHANT LOUP

Cervical Cancer
Insid da was ah bad analogy to use on BD lol.


Actually, it was the perfect scenario because it exposed that BD has poor rationale, when under perceived danger. That she is willing to be reckless in the thought of self-preservation. Also, that she doesn't gauge the level of the threat...once she feels threaten she will take action. Then later worry about if her actions were justified.
 

Taj

Loyalty to Loyalty


That report is true and depicted in the video....every male I discussed this incident with, whether they sided with the driver or biker, or said they were both wrong. All said when they are amongst multiple bikers, they fall back and let them go head.
He had that choice too, as much as staying on the road.
Now that could very well be the case, because some will do stuff like that. Not much different than if a bunch of cars rolling together. If all have to make u-turns (lets say), the first will basically block all other cars path while everyone makes their turn and the initial blocker will turn last. This insures they stay together (at least at that time) without other cars falling in between. (Playing devil's advocate) why not let him pass? Because they probably couldn't hold the merges for too long since someone will end up calling 911 at some point. Can't do that indefinitely. Rover isn't going fast enough that once they release the blocks they will have enough time. Now it is true that the RR driver had all rights to continue along and not care about what they were attempting to do (and not be disrespected accordin to carlos). However I will again stress that if he were so overly focused on his family's safety he would have slowed and allowed them by. Not as a concession to their efforts (even though they would have thought so (who care's)) but as a tactical measure to avoid potentially hitting any of them whether accidentally or incidentally. In the video posted you see where they start appearing behind, next to and in front of him. It is at that moment that mature and rational thinking drivers with their family would slow and let them by.
oh ok cos i'm not a car person i know motocycles are fast but the RR was going fast too. I was thinking easier to let the RR go first instead of behind cos they would likely always catch up to the bike group.

I'm sayin this as someone who isn't a rider but why would they feel they have the right to violate the road codes so, just like the ppl that drag race. Don't do some of those things around people get on some kinda private course.

sorry about the riders life that hanging in the balance
 

Alpha Unit

Insurgent


Actually, it was the perfect scenario because it exposed that BD has poor rationale, when under perceived danger. That she is willing to be reckless in the thought of self-preservation. Also, that she doesn't gauge the level of the threat...once she feels threaten she will take action. Then later worry about if her actions were justified.
That part I get. I just think it was never gonna be helpful in driving home the point that the driver acted irrationally to the situation as it was. Your example and her response perfectly shows why every home shouldn't have a firearm in it tho.
 

femmeayitienne

***//\\***
New York (CNN) -- The video seems clear: an SUV driver hits a biker on Manhattan's West Side, and sets off a violent chain of events. But now, a debate is raging over who should shoulder the blame for this disturbing attack.

Soon after the helmet cam video of the confrontation went viral, sympathies lay with the driver of the Range Rover.

Online commenters seemed to side with him. He was swarmed by a motorbike gang. He had his wife and 2-year-old daughter inside. He did what he had to do to protect them, they said.

But now supporters of the bikers being vilified for the weekend attack are pleading their case.
Bikers attack SUV in NYC
Statement from SUV driver's wife
Charges dropped against biker
Biker: SUV driver 'was a maniac'

They gathered Wednesday night outside the Manhattan hospital where one of the bikers, Edwin Mieses, lies comatose. He was run over by the SUV as the driver tried to escape.

"It is an unfortunate situation on both sides," said Lexie Filpo, who said she was one of the bikers. "I knew that car seemed reckless from the beginning. From when he first jumped on the highway. When things happened people were telling him to stop, to slow down, and he never did."

"The officers, they want to arrest the bikers; they should arrest the driver as well," Filpo said.

Official: Biker may have been trying to help SUV driver

Swarmed by bikers

The incident took place on Manhattan's West Side Highway on Sunday. Police said a man driving a Range Rover struck a motorcyclist who had slowed down.

Previous reporting indicated the impact broke the motorcyclist's leg, but New York police Sgt. Lee Jones said Wednesday that the biker sustained only minor injuries.

The driver, Alexian Lien, pulled over and was surrounded by other bikers, part of a group called Hollywood Stuntz. They hit the vehicle and spiked its tires, police said.

The driver pulled away, plowing three more bikers, including the now-comatose Mieses.

The bikers chased him. Once he was stuck in traffic, they cornered the SUV. The video shows one biker using his helmet to smash the driver's side window.

Police said the bikers dragged Lien out of the SUV and beat him. His wife and daughter were unharmed.

Lien was later treated at a local hospital for slashes to his face, and released.

Lien's family released a statement Thursday through their attorneys saying he was "forced under the circumstances to take the actions that he did in order to protect the lives of our entire family."

He and his wife were out to celebrate their wedding anniversary with their daughter when the incident happened, according to the statement.

"We know in our hearts that we could not have done anything differently, and we believe that anyone faced with this sort of grave danger would have taken the same course of action in order to protect their family," the statement said.

Jerome Davis said he witnessed a part of the confrontation, and described the SUV driver as a "maniac."

"If something happens, you stop right there. It's an accident. You think and stop. You don't keep reacting on," he told CNN's Erin Burnett on Wednesday.

But on CNN's "New Day" Thursday, Davis said, "Two wrongs don't make a right," and said it was clear the SUV driver was afraid.

"If I was in his shoes, I'd be scared," he said.

Opinion: In attack, can bikers get a fair shake?

No charges against driver

Police have not said that they are seeking any charges against Lien.

But they arrested Christopher Cruz, who is seen slowing down in front of the Range Rover before he was bumped.

Cruz, 28, was in court Wednesday facing misdemeanor charges, including reckless driving. Cruz's attorney told reporters that his client is not guilty.

Cruz was to be released after posting $1,500 cash bail and a $15,000 insurance bond. In addition, his license was suspended and he was ordered to surrender his passport.

"His motorcycle was struck and he stood right there," Cruz's attorney H. Benjamin Perez told reporters. "He never assaulted this man. He never tried to assault him in any way. And he does not know any of the other motorcyclists who were involved in this beating."

A second biker, who police arrested, was released Wednesday when authorities determined that he may have been trying to help.

Allen Edwards, 42, originally faced charges of reckless endangerment, criminal mischief and menacing, police said.

But that didn't mean the prosecutors were done.

"Prematurely charging individuals with low-level crimes does not further the goals of the investigation, and could weaken the cases we expect to bring against the perpetrators of serious crimes," said Karen Friedman-Agnifilo, the prosecutor who is overseeing the case.

"After we investigate the facts and each person's individual actions, we will know what charges can be supported by the evidence. There is still a tremendous amount of investigation to be done."

The New York Police Department released images and asked for the public's help in identifying and locating suspects.

Police are also looking at a 2011 video that shows a separate case of biker violence. In it, riders appear to surround and antagonize a motorist.

Law enforcement officials told CNN they are examining the footage frame by frame, looking for possible patterns.

Standing vigil

Mieses' family says the real victim of the confrontation is the hospitalized biker.

"All of his ribs are fractured. His lungs are so badly bruised that he's still on a ventilator," Yolanda Santiago, his mother, told CNN affiliate WCBS.

His wife, Dayana, told CNN affiliate WBZ that Mieses got off his bike to help the SUV driver.

"And whatever he did, he got scared, he peeled off, and he paralyzed my husband on the way," she said.

Back at the vigil Wednesday night, the attendees raised almost $400. They hope to raise more at another vigil planned Thursday.

"I believe both of them should be charged because both of them were wrong—the biker and the guy in the car," said Victor Rodriguez.
 

Alpha Unit

Insurgent
This is just NYPD knee jerk bullshit reaction and articles regurgitating what police claim happened. I wouldn't be surprised if all that spiked tires nonsense is what the wife told police occured because based on the video is no way police could say that occurred. Not buying that biker lady statement that the RR was driving rekless either. She full of shit, the video shows them catching up to him so I doh buy that he was driving crazy at all. All they doing on both sides is poluting the facts. The raw facts are:
1. an accident occured.
2. The SUV driver fled the scene of the accident.
3. The SUV driver hit and paralyzed a biker that was in no way a threat to him.
4. The SUV driver hit another biker while attempting to flee the gang of bikers who were at that time persuing him.
5. The SUV driver was badly beaten.

Everything else is an attempt to convalute the picture. The bikers whether they were reported earlier or not did not (until any eyewitnesses come forward and say different) did not present enough a threat to that man for him to do what he did. From all angles the bikers will continue to be villified because of the end result when they caught him.
 

BacchanalDiva

Registered User
Now that could very well be the case, because some will do stuff like that. Not much different than if a bunch of cars rolling together. If all have to make u-turns (lets say), the first will basically block all other cars path while everyone makes their turn and the initial blocker will turn last. This insures they stay together (at least at that time) without other cars falling in between. (Playing devil's advocate) why not let him pass? Because they probably couldn't hold the merges for too long since someone will end up calling 911 at some point. Can't do that indefinitely. Rover isn't going fast enough that once they release the blocks they will have enough time. Now it is true that the RR driver had all rights to continue along and not care about what they were attempting to do (and not be disrespected accordin to carlos). However I will again stress that if he were so overly focused on his family's safety he would have slowed and allowed them by. Not as a concession to their efforts (even though they would have thought so (who care's)) but as a tactical measure to avoid potentially hitting any of them whether accidentally or incidentally. In the video posted you see where they start appearing behind, next to and in front of him. It is at that moment that mature and rational thinking drivers with their family would slow and let them by.

Hab he stopped because he encountered traffic. At the speed he was going if his tires were flat it would have ended up coming off the rim completely. When metal hits asphalt, the friction will cause sparks to fly. There weren't any sparks anywhere in that video. He stopped because he encountered traffic. Is nuh like he was driving ah monster truck and could climb over all the vehicles in front of him.

Insid da was ah bad analogy to use on BD lol.

For those of us who know riders or related to any tell me how would you feel to know that your friend or relative (riding with about 5 or 6 other friends/ riders) passes by an accident scene with a biker down (who was already riding with 4 or 5 others as well) stop to check on the rider and the irrational driver (who hit him/ her) feels "oh my god more are coming they called in the calvary." When the initial accident occurs two of the friends start immediately cursing at the driver who hit the biker. So now that driver is thinking "They are gonna kill me" and he proceeds to paralyze your friend or family out of such irrational thinking. How would you feel.

Not saying this is the same but since some have mentioned state of mind/ fear making the actions of the rover driver ok, would state of mind in this situation give that driver a pass?
You got that one Big Boss. No I wouldn't want to hear about the drivers state of mind atall
 

Hello BKLYN

Searching For Answers
From the Bikers point of view

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=644163622283550" width="1280" height="720" frameborder="0"></iframe>
 

Dr Insane

New member
Dat what yuh talkin there is nonsense. If one out of 30 seem a little confrontational daz enough to paralyze ah man? All that other stuff is more nonsense. Ring leader? Allyuh watchin too much T.V. Most bikers are regular hard working individuals not some sinister group of thugs looking to rough up people. Yes some riders do shit on the road and partake in dangerous stunts but these wasn't no hells angels or nutten like that. If they were going to confront as a group they wasn't staying on their bikes. So save that excuse. He overreacted to the situation.

Up to now nobody in the thread mentioned directly confronting anyone so even that is bs. If he felt threatened stay in yuh vehicle, doors locked and call the police. In the meantime film all activity going on. He paniced as if it was an angry mob and it wasn't even like that. Because of him they became to some extent an angry mob. He should be charged with attempted murder for that bullshit. Doh make excuses fuh fockry. Da man was wrong. If he coward and scared then he need to live in ah fockin bubble far away from society. So if he hit one of these young punks car and they come out guffin up because he damage they new ride and he feels threatened, would it be ok to run that driver over too?
If so many people are around you and you are in a fear of your life. No way in hell i am sitting down there to call 911 and lock my doors. Attempted murder? where was his intent to commit murder? Maybe you should go read Article 35 of the New York State Penal Law. If your life is in danger you can use the right amount of force to get out of that situation and to me that was the right force. It sucks that a rider that was just trying to help got this badly injured but i don't see why the driver should be charged with anything. We had a discussion about that case in class ( a Criminal Justice class) and most people were of the opinion that the driver shouldn't be charged and that is people very familiar with the NY State penal law.
 

Alpha Unit

Insurgent
If so many people are around you and you are in a fear of your life. No way in hell i am sitting down there to call 911 and lock my doors. Attempted murder? where was his intent to commit murder? Maybe you should go read Article 35 of the New York State Penal Law. If your life is in danger you can use the right amount of force to get out of that situation and to me that was the right force. It sucks that a rider that was just trying to help got this badly injured but i don't see why the driver should be charged with anything. We had a discussion about that case in class ( a Criminal Justice class) and most people were of the opinion that the driver shouldn't be charged and that is people very familiar with the NY State penal law.
Always go for the highest charge with lesser as a possibility for the jury. Doh come with no penal code talk because trust and believe yuh cah argue that with me homie. The threat was more imagination than reality. Seems like is a classroom full of people who have conveniently ignored the actual facts. Since yuh want to talk law, use the only evidence we all privvy to and comvince me of the threat.

Here are a few things as his defense lawyer you will need to illustrate:

How many riders posed a threat?
At what moment in the video is this threat visible?
Can you prove that any damage to the vehicle occurred before the suv driver was finally caught?
Were any weapons found that belong to the bikers?
When do they appear in the footage?
When did the suv driver call 911
Does fear of an imagined threat justify the drivers actions?
Do you have precedent cases?


Yuh in criminal justice class so let's see what you can do!
 

MÉCHANT LOUP

Cervical Cancer
If so many people are around you and you are in a fear of your life. No way in hell i am sitting down there to call 911 and lock my doors. Attempted murder? where was his intent to commit murder? Maybe you should go read Article 35 of the New York State Penal Law. If your life is in danger you can use the right amount of force to get out of that situation and to me that was the right force. It sucks that a rider that was just trying to help got this badly injured but i don't see why the driver should be charged with anything. We had a discussion about that case in class ( a Criminal Justice class) and most people were of the opinion that the driver shouldn't be charged and that is people very familiar with the NY State penal law.

LOL...good try!

Physical force and Lethal force are not the same thing...article 35 describes the justification of physical force.

The driver used his vehicle as a lethal weapon.
 

Alpha Unit

Insurgent

LOL...good try!

Physical force and Lethal force are not the same thing...article 35 describes the justification of physical force.

The driver used his vehicle as a lethal weapon.
Doh mind small man, he feel is people who eh understand the penal code :kicks
 

BacchanalDiva

Registered User
This morning I heard one of the bikers say that after initial accident, one biker did take off his helmet and bang the window just like the footage in the end; but , when he looked good through the tint and saw that there was a family in the car, he backed off and walked away. According to that biker, is then driver decided to plow through them. He claims the driver was also talking shit and "acting aggressively. If that's the case then no, he did not have to do what he did. I guess this whole thing is really grey and it's best it comes down to law.

What's interesting to me in this thread though esp Insid's comments about me is how everyone seems to claim that self preservation does not take over most ppl's actions when threatened. This is why ppl should not approach situations letting their emotions rage. If you stomp up to someone yelling and cussing and invading their personal space they're likely to react any kind of way. You try to bang down someone's front door...you're likely to get shot :rolleyes: For the record, there are numerous guns in my house, my husband hunts.,.and I haven't shot anyone yet. :kicks
 
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